Question about CREATIONISM

[musirPmeaT]

Evolution is science.
Creationism is not science.


.

...unless you see evolution as the science behind creationism. If you view creationism loosely like I do, just put God as the driving force behind science and evolution.

Regardless of how you view the relationship between them, creationism is not science.

[musirPmeaT]

Maybe I'm late in getting this, but apparently the authors of Genesis are unknown. So there's no room to question what inspired the author to write Genesis because you don't even know who to start with. I guess literal-interpreting creationists have to have extra faith in the bible's, uh, truthfulness in Genesis.

I've heard creationists rejecting/disbelieving radiometric dating, but believing Genesis to be an accurate historical record with unknown authors.........that makes me laugh.

Anywho.

[Furis]

They answer different questions; religion requires faith, science does not.

Evolution is science.
Creationism is not science.

Both require faith.

For something to be proven scientifically it must be observed and neither evolution nor creation has been observed thus they are both taken on faith.

[Persona]

First of all, one doesn't need to observe something to prove it scientifically, (for instance, have you observed the extinction of the dinosaurs) Secondly, evolution has been observed on small scales.

[musirPmeaT]

They answer different questions; religion requires faith, science does not.

Evolution is science.
Creationism is not science.

Both require faith.

For something to be proven scientifically it must be observed and neither evolution nor creation has been observed thus they are both taken on faith.

Evolution takes assumptions, not faith.

[daoist]

For something to be proven scientifically it must be observed and neither evolution nor creation has been observed thus they are both taken on faith.

OK kids, it's time for a magic trick.

is this your card?



next, please.

[musirPmeaT]

They answer different questions; religion requires faith, science does not.

Evolution is science.
Creationism is not science.

Both require faith.

For something to be proven scientifically it must be observed and neither evolution nor creation has been observed thus they are both taken on faith.

Evolution takes assumptions, not faith.

Just a followup: even relativity has assumptions.

[Beef Supreme]

They answer different questions; religion requires faith, science does not.

Evolution is science.
Creationism is not science.

Both require faith.

For something to be proven scientifically it must be observed and neither evolution nor creation has been observed thus they are both taken on faith.

Science: Based on evidence.
Religion: Based on faith.

Science does not require faith, it requires proof or at least evidence.

[Shuft]

I've noticed an interesting pattern. Creationists (including ID) use enertia to prove their supremacy over evolution.

Going into an argument the creationist sees that their opponent believes in the validity of evolution over creationism. The plan is to quickly close the gap, then watch as enertia keep them sailing past each other.

The way this is accomplished is by forcefully equating them.

"ID is a theory just like evolution."
"Both require faith."
"There are scientists on both sides of the argument."

Now that they are together, you just assume they keep on going until everybody agrees with you.

[Lars]

First of all, one doesn't need to observe something to prove it scientifically, (for instance, have you observed the extinction of the dinosaurs) Secondly, evolution has been observed on small scales.

Good grief. "Prove it scientifically" ? You have no idea how science works.

[Dr. Faustus]

I have no respect for anyone who believes in creationism over evolution. That is all.

[Dr. Faustus]

Secondly, what angers me even more is people who act as if something written in the Bible automatically has any sort of scientific validity. I hate to burst your feeble bubble, but it doesn't.

[acjohnson]

uh,... no, it's not.

I was exaggerating. What I meant is that people put far too much faith in science as knowledge. Scientists have "known" many different things at different times. In 50 years, much of what we "know" now will probably be "known" to be false.

[Persona]

First of all, one doesn't need to observe something to prove it scientifically, (for instance, have you observed the extinction of the dinosaurs) Secondly, evolution has been observed on small scales.

Good grief. "Prove it scientifically" ? You have no idea how science works.

i know that all scientific conclusions are tentative, but there comes a point when you have enough evidence for something that you can safely call it proven, (i.e., established beyond a reasonable doubt) e.g., plate techtonics, the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, etc.

[Furis]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

[daoist]

pick up a science textbook. it's not our job to undue the damage your lack of education has caused you.

Or you could just go look in the religion/philosophy forum, we have this argument about every couple of months.

[Reagraham Lincool]

For something to be proven scientifically it must be observed

Actually, the way it works is for something to be disproved, conclusions must follow from it's premise which can be shown to be false. Observation is not "proof" of a theory (or hypothesis for that matter), it's merely evidence.

[Talenos]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

It came from the combination of elements on the earth several billion years ago. It's sad noone bothered to teach you something so basic in school yet.

[Persona]

There are currently several competing theories of the origin of life (abiogenesis). It is not, however, a problem for the field of evolution, which deals with how organisms change into other organisms. For a good overview, see The emergence of life on Earth : a historical and scientific overview by Iris Fry.

[Furis]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

It came from the combination of elements on the earth several billion years ago. It's sad noone bothered to teach you something so basic in school yet.

Ok, now where did those elements come from?

You still dont see where I'm going with this.

[ape]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

Actually, I do not even think it matters. All that is matters is that humans have evolved from more primitive organisms rather than were made in the image of god. It is simply desirable, but by no means necessary to invalidate christianity, to illustrate that the most primitive organism was created from primordial soup. In fact, showing the strong link between apes and humans is sufficient. I believe it has been done many years ago.

[idkmybffjill?]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

It came from the combination of elements on the earth several billion years ago. It's sad noone bothered to teach you something so basic in school yet.

Ok, now where did those elements come from?

You still dont see where I'm going with this.

where did matter come from, rather?

[servotron]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

It came from the combination of elements on the earth several billion years ago. It's sad noone bothered to teach you something so basic in school yet.

Ok, now where did those elements come from?

You still dont see where I'm going with this.

If you don't understand it, you need to just take a step back and try to look at things in the big picture, instead of beginnings and ends...and you have to keep a little "faith" in the ability of random chance, mutation, and LOTS of time.

I can't say that if you don't "get" it now that you never will, but if you don't allow yourself to think outside the box a little you might never grasp the concept of evolution, or infinity.

[ape]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

It came from the combination of elements on the earth several billion years ago. It's sad noone bothered to teach you something so basic in school yet.

Ok, now where did those elements come from?

You still dont see where I'm going with this.

Suppose I explain to you where elements come from. Then you would say that where have those building blocks came from, and so on until the big bang, and then you ask what was before bing bang and I say I do not know. You'd say, "you see". I say, "see what?" You cannot see anyting from this, especially that god exists. It would be a redundant mental exercise since I have already shown that humans were not created in the image of god but evolved therefore all the scriptures worth less than the paper they have been printed on.

[Furis]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

It came from the combination of elements on the earth several billion years ago. It's sad noone bothered to teach you something so basic in school yet.

Ok, now where did those elements come from?

You still dont see where I'm going with this.

Suppose I explain to you where elements come from. Then you would say that where have those building blocks came from, and so on until the big bang, and then you ask what was before bing bang and I say I do not know. You'd say, "you see". I say, "see what?" You cannot see anyting from this, especially that god exists. It would be a redundant mental exercise since I have already shown that humans were not created in the image of god but evolved therefore all the scriptures worth less than the paper they have been printed on.

BINGO (in a way)

When it all comes down to it this universe came from nothing. How? Big Bang? No, it’s not possible (laws of physics don’t support it) and most scientists (including supporters of evolution) believe it isn’t possible. God? You cant prove he doesn’t exist, and if He does exist He created the laws of physics thus He could break them.

If you are right I die and my existence ends, big whoop. If I am right you burn in hell for all eternity. I'd say that I am running a much lower risk than you.

[Persona]

none of this has any direct bearing on evolution. besides, the laws of physics are incomplete and break down when it comes to the big bang. also, your statement that most scientists think the big bang is impossible is simply false. also, your last sentence was pascal's wager, which almost all philosophers agree is bullshit.

[Furis]

also, your last sentence was pascal's wager, which almost all philosophers agree is bullshit.

Viewed as BS or not, its true.

[Persona]

i just created a new religion. all you have to do to avoid burning in hell for all eternity is renounce christianity. wanna join? not joining would be a pretty big risk.

[mr. donnie]

yeah both theologian and philosopher would call you a bad person and unfaithful if you chose to believe in a god because it was the safest choice. you wouldnt believe, you would fear.


also i refer you to the nova series The Elegant Universe for some theorizing and discussion on the origins of the universe.

[Reagraham Lincool]

also, your last sentence was pascal's wager, which almost all philosophers agree is bullshit.

Viewed as BS or not, its true.

No it isn't. It assumes you have any knowledge of what the afterlife is like if God exists.

Maybe you're supposed to question God's existance. Maybe he sends everyone who wasn't willing to think for themselves to hell. Maybe everyone goes to hell. You have no idea.

[Persona]

It also assumes you can change your beliefs at will. Anyway, the subject of whether evolution occurred or not is independant of whether or not a god exists.

[Beef Supreme]

When it all comes down to it this universe came from nothing. How? Big Bang? No, it’s not possible (laws of physics don’t support it) and most scientists (including supporters of evolution) believe it isn’t possible.

Source?

God? You cant prove he doesn’t exist, and if He does exist He created the laws of physics thus He could break them.

If you are right I die and my existence ends, big whoop. If I am right you burn in hell for all eternity. I'd say that I am running a much lower risk than you.

I can say we were created by the union of a giant space dildo and an interstellar blowup doll. If you think I'm wrong and don't believe me and die, you're doomed to an eternity of giant space dildo penetration. If you follow my religion, you get an eternity of paradise. So logically, you should come worship the space dildo with me.

Sound familiar? This is shitty reasoning. Religion isn't an insurance policy.

[bith]

I can say we were created by the union of a giant space dildo and an interstellar blowup doll. If you think I'm wrong and don't believe me and die, you're doomed to an eternity of giant space dildo penetration. If you follow my religion, you get an eternity of paradise. So logically, you should come worship the space dildo with me.

Sound familiar? This is shitty reasoning. Religion isn't an insurance policy.

write a book according to your visions of this interstellar blowup doll and i'm in. that space dildo penetration sounds like bad news.

When it all comes down to it this universe came from nothing. How? Big Bang? No, it’s not possible (laws of physics don’t support it) and most scientists (including supporters of evolution) believe it isn’t possible. God? You cant prove he doesn’t exist, and if He does exist He created the laws of physics thus He could break them.

why do you get to stop your argument there? why can't i ask where god came from?

[Hamsa]

While no one can prove if god exists or not, that is irrelevant. Because just because god exists it doesn't mean that he/she have created the world.

However, let assume that god did create this world. Then god must be able to alter it, this implies that he must be able to create, modify, and move objects in this world.

Then consider the question "Can god create a rock so heavy that he cannot move it?"

If he can create such a rock, that shows he can't move some object, so he must not have created the universe to begin with.

If he can't create such a rock, then the same conclusion holds.

[ape]

I can say we were created by the union of a giant space dildo and an interstellar blowup doll. If you think I'm wrong and don't believe me and die, you're doomed to an eternity of giant space dildo penetration. If you follow my religion, you get an eternity of paradise.

That made me laugh. The more I think about religions the more ridiculous they look like, to the point where I laugh anytime I hear their non-sense arguments/proofs.

[idkmybffjill?]

If you are right I die and my existence ends, big whoop. If I am right you burn in hell for all eternity. I'd say that I am running a much lower risk than you.

At this point you imagine all the little evolutionists running around screaming in the firey pit of hell while you're up in heaven kickin' back with God, don't you? Is believing in evolution a sin? Worthy of going to hell for? Aren't we encouraged to question, even doubt our creation in Christanity? And what about other religions, aren't they valid? The thing is, we are just as scared of our fates as you are. I mean, whatever 'hell' has to offer it means that at some level or another we are still existing somewhat. If there is nothing in the great beyond then we're both going to the same place, nothingness.

[Furis]

yeah both theologian and philosopher would call you a bad person and unfaithful if you chose to believe in a god because it was the safest choice. you wouldnt believe, you would fear.

You are correct and I have full faith in what I believe, but I thought Id throw the point out there.

At this point you imagine all the little evolutionists running around screaming in the firey pit of hell while you're up in heaven kickin' back with God, don't you? Is believing in evolution a sin? Worthy of going to hell for? Aren't we encouraged to question, even doubt our creation in Christanity? And what about other religions, aren't they valid?

You can question anything in life that you want.

The thing is, we are just as scared of our fates as you are.

And that is where we are different. I have no fear of what is to come, I have no fear of death.[/quote]

[G_RAM]

arrogant fucking asshole. Self intrested smug sun of a bitch. You make me so angry.

[bith]

i was thinking the same. but he actually makes me feel really good about my decisions.

[Furis]

arrogant fucking asshole. Self intrested smug sun of a bitch. You make me so angry.

[Reagraham Lincool]

yeah both theologian and philosopher would call you a bad person and unfaithful if you chose to believe in a god because it was the safest choice. you wouldnt believe, you would fear.

You are correct and I have full faith in what I believe, but I thought Id throw the point out there.

The point is quite simply wrong though (which has been known almost since it was originally concieved).

[Furis]

yeah both theologian and philosopher would call you a bad person and unfaithful if you chose to believe in a god because it was the safest choice. you wouldnt believe, you would fear.

You are correct and I have full faith in what I believe, but I thought Id throw the point out there.

The point is quite simply wrong though (which has been known almost since it was originally concieved).

No its not. If im right your screwed, if im not big whoop.

[bith]

cause god is real insecure and petty. i should know, i saw him in my spaghetti sauce.

[G_RAM]

Which could be posed for ANY fucking belief structure with good and bad things. Big woop.

[Reagraham Lincool]

yeah both theologian and philosopher would call you a bad person and unfaithful if you chose to believe in a god because it was the safest choice. you wouldnt believe, you would fear.

You are correct and I have full faith in what I believe, but I thought Id throw the point out there.

The point is quite simply wrong though (which has been known almost since it was originally concieved).

No its not. If im right your screwed, if im not big whoop.

Look. I'm gonna explain this one time with charts, and we're gonna call that good, okay?


Here's Pacal's wager:

Code: Select all

            God Exists         God Doesn't Exist
Believe      0 years of RLP*      0 years of RLP*
            Go to heaven         ???

Don't Believe   90 years of RLP*      90 years of RLP*
               Go to hell            ???

*RLP = Raping Looting and Pillaging

Except, there's an unknown which is just assumed. And that assumption is that you have any idea what happens in the afterlife if God exists.

So here's Pascal's wager given what you actually know:

Code: Select all

            God Exists         God Doesn't Exist
Believe      0 years of RLP*      0 years of RLP*
            ???                  ???

Don't Believe   90 years of RLP*      90 years of RLP*
               ???                     ???

*RLP = Raping Looting and Pillaging

[bith]

just to expedite things, i'm gonna answer for Furis.


but the bible....blah blah blah


edit: oh wait, i forgot something. faith in = actually happened. nevermind, i'm wrong.

[Toilet of Sadness]

No its not. If im right your screwed, if im not big whoop.

Unless, of course, you worship the wrong god, and every day you do so, you just make him angrier and angrier.

[Dr. Faustus]

Not that im really interested in this thread, but i have a question.

Ok, based on the assumption that evolution is true. Where did the first thing(that everything evolved from) come from?

That doesn't even matter. They're working on it. We don't have to know. Unlike religion, science is only interested in what can be proven. Science has the yarbles to admit that there are some thing beyond which they cannot explain.


You can make up any story you want to fill those gaps, but that doesn't make even remotely true.

[Dr. Faustus]

Furis, what people like you need to realize is that we made religion, religion didn't make us. Humans created religion as a way to explain all the things they really didn't know about the world. It's blanket to cover the unknown, which scares people.


This is why different areas of the world all have different religious beliefs. Their individual cultures created a belief system to explain why reality is the way it is. It's not the other way around. Christianity did not create us, we created it. That's as basic as it gets.

[Persona]

I truly believe that a large part of Christianity's success is it's chain letter-type properties. e.g., believe this and spread the word or else (random threat) and receive (random reward). By making the reward and punishment infinite and eternal, it made them much more powerful. And, of course, by making them arrive after death, it is impossible to disprove them. Now that I think about it, you can use Pascal's Wager to justify just about any superstitious practice, and that's probably why superstition is still popular in this scientific age.

[Dr. Faustus]

The basic facts are that no one really knows what will happen after we die. I don't, scientists don't, religious leaders will tell you that they do but they really don't either. Death is like this wall that separates us from a room we don't know anything about. The only way to find out is to die, but then you can't come back and tell everyone else what happened. It's one of life's great mysteries.

[Persona]

The basic facts are that no one really knows what will happen after we die.

...a fact that religions have been exploiting for millennia.

[musirPmeaT]

The basic facts are that no one really knows what will happen after we die.

...a fact that religions have been exploiting for millennia.

....a fact that politicians have been exploiting for millennia.

[Dr. Steve Anarchy]

When it all comes down to it this universe came from nothing. How? Big Bang? No, it’s not possible (laws of physics don’t support it) and most scientists (including supporters of evolution) believe it isn’t possible.

As someone who specializes in a such a related branch of physics, let me put it bluntly: you're full of shit. The only "laws of physics" you're breaking are the Aristotelian ones.

Simply, there is such a thing as "quantum vaccuum energy," among which is one of many competing cosmological explanations of the Big Bang. Others include a subset of String Theory known as "Brane Theory", which posits that the Big Bang was in fact the product of the collision of two "memberane-like" spaces.

Most scientists with any actual knowledge of physics aren't as quick as you characterize them as to dismiss the Big Bang, and most certainly aren't going to naively dismiss it as "impossible" given the cosmological record (see: cosmic microwave background radiation).

[musirPmeaT]

Note: see my new sig

[Persona]

When it all comes down to it this universe came from nothing. How? Big Bang? No, it’s not possible (laws of physics don’t support it) and most scientists (including supporters of evolution) believe it isn’t possible.

As someone who specializes in a such a related branch of physics, let me put it bluntly: you're full of shit. The only "laws of physics" you're breaking are the Aristotelian ones.

Simply, there is such a thing as "quantum vaccuum energy," among which is one of many competing cosmological explanations of the Big Bang. Others include a subset of String Theory known as "Brane Theory", which posits that the Big Bang was in fact the product of the collision of two "memberane-like" spaces.

Most scientists with any actual knowledge of physics aren't as quick as you characterize them as to dismiss the Big Bang, and most certainly aren't going to naively dismiss it as "impossible" given the cosmological record (see: cosmic microwave background radiation).

[idkmybffjill?]

When it all comes down to it this universe came from nothing. How? Big Bang? No, it’s not possible (laws of physics don’t support it) and most scientists (including supporters of evolution) believe it isn’t possible.

So yeah, I'm an anthropology major. You know, the major that studies people? And evolution? About the big bang, sorry, it's the theory that has the most support among scientists, including those who support evolution.

[bith]

*puts on the Furis hat again for fun*


BUT THE BIBLE!!!!!

[idkmybffjill?]

The bible is very vital in a mid-east cultural-historical context in addition to the role Christianity plays worldwide. Archaeologists and others have found the remains of many of the ancients cities and places mentioned in the bible with much help from local peoples and historians.

[bith]

but the bible could have been a true story about some crazy, drunken jewish kids who go on a road trip and still provided the context you are talking about. just because it has some historical truth, that doesn't mean it can be relied upon at all regarding the creation of the universe.

[idkmybffjill?]

What I'm trying to say is "The bible isnt a lie.............entirely"

[Dr. Faustus]

The Bible is a work of fiction. That doesn't mean it doesn't borrow from reality.

There are lots and lots of fictional stories that take place in real places. There are also a lot of fictional stories that are based around actual events.

[Dr. Faustus]

I have to read The Canterbury Tales for a class this semester. They come from like 1400 or so. Even though there really is a Canterbury and a lot of the characters mirror those in British society at the time, the story is entirely made up.

[Dr. Faustus]

Also, there have been many other great works of fiction treated in the same light even before the Bible came into being, most notably the Odyssey or the Iliad.

edit: I also enjoy reading Norse mythology. It dates back to nearly 100AD and has nearly a long of a history as Christianity. Only, unlike Christianity it became extinct as a belief system at some point. That doesn't make it any less interesting.

[Persona]

I wish Furis would come back here so we could own him a few more times.