If the average on a final is below 50%...

[VoicesofGusto]

I stand by that I learned a lot from Dana, and I'm pretty certain my own accomplisments show that I have learned a lot from everyone else in the department. Thanks for the off-hand insult though.

[drmiles]

I rarely went to Colver's class and did just fine in it (participation dragged me down to a B+ I think). He just was worthless in pretty much every way. MathCAD is supposedly really good for units, but it doesn't even use some basic ones, and it is far more difficult to get the desired units than with other things (TI-89, for example).

Haugli was absolutely impossible to learn anything useful (and correct) from. If I didn't know how to program already I wouldn't have been able to learn from him, and he was wrong on most other things. I think most AerEs spend a good chunk of statics just recovering from the damage done in 160/1. I pity anybody who actually paid attention in those classes (thereby implying attendance, which I also feel bad for). Oh, and he wasn't funny, either.

[MarcusAurelius]

I rarely went to Colver's class and did just fine in it (participation dragged me down to a B+ I think). He just was worthless in pretty much every way. MathCAD is supposedly really good for units, but it doesn't even use some basic ones, and it is far more difficult to get the desired units than with other things (TI-89, for example).

Haugli was absolutely impossible to learn anything useful (and correct) from. If I didn't know how to program already I wouldn't have been able to learn from him, and he was wrong on most other things. I think most AerEs spend a good chunk of statics just recovering from the damage done in 160/1. I pity anybody who actually paid attention in those classes (thereby implying attendance, which I also feel bad for). Oh, and he wasn't funny, either.

^^^^ that dude knows what's up. i went from CS to aere, so i was rare in the sense that i had done a couple semesters of programming prior to seeing dana fumble through someone else's fortran notes. he also fucks sheep. dirty dirty sheepfucker. (PS i thought colver was pretty bright, and i liked his approach to general engineering problems)

[drmiles]

I rarely went to Colver's class and did just fine in it (participation dragged me down to a B+ I think). He just was worthless in pretty much every way. MathCAD is supposedly really good for units, but it doesn't even use some basic ones, and it is far more difficult to get the desired units than with other things (TI-89, for example).

Haugli was absolutely impossible to learn anything useful (and correct) from. If I didn't know how to program already I wouldn't have been able to learn from him, and he was wrong on most other things. I think most AerEs spend a good chunk of statics just recovering from the damage done in 160/1. I pity anybody who actually paid attention in those classes (thereby implying attendance, which I also feel bad for). Oh, and he wasn't funny, either.

^^^^ that dude knows what's up. i went from CS to aere, so i was rare in the sense that i had done a couple semesters of programming prior to seeing dana fumble through someone else's fortran notes. he also fucks sheep. dirty dirty sheepfucker. (PS i thought colver was pretty bright, and i liked his approach to general engineering problems)

He was very intelligent, and I have no problem with the way he solved the problems, but unit analysis is far easier than he made it. And far easier than Dana made it. Converting slugs to kg should not take 2 pages.

[MarcusAurelius]

lol i remember that on an exam, and thinking, you know, this should be really really really easy. i guess colver's way was probably more universally appropriate, only using universal constants if i remember right. unit analysis aside, he really knew his thermodynamics. kind of a propulsions expert.

and don't you like my photoshop!

(how do you get an A in a haugli class? buy him a wool sweater as the old joke goes)

[drmiles]

Oh that photoshop job was high quality.

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

also, loren zachary aka zach seemed pretty cool to me for a long time but turned out to be a faggot, because he put group interaction ahead of actual learning. Fuck working my ass to get an A on a "group" project so a mongoloid piece of shit can ride an A of his own.

So, do you expect to do any projects on your own in industry? If you hate working in groups that much you should probably rethink your major.

[VoicesofGusto]

lol i remember that on an exam, and thinking, you know, this should be really really really easy. i guess colver's way was probably more universally appropriate, only using universal constants if i remember right. unit analysis aside, he really knew his thermodynamics. kind of a propulsions expert.

The main thing I remember about Colver's class is when he spent a whole class period and two e-mails explaining to people how to convert between 'radians per second' and 'revolutions per minute.'

I wanted to cry, but I don't know if I can blame Colver or the students who must have been sleeping through the first two years of classes more.

[drmiles]

lol i remember that on an exam, and thinking, you know, this should be really really really easy. i guess colver's way was probably more universally appropriate, only using universal constants if i remember right. unit analysis aside, he really knew his thermodynamics. kind of a propulsions expert.

The main thing I remember about Colver's class is when he spent a whole class period and two e-mails explaining to people how to convert between 'radians per second' and 'revolutions per minute.'

I wanted to cry, but I don't know if I can blame Colver or the students who must have been sleeping through the first two years of classes more.

Well first you have to use MathCAD to figure out how many seconds there are in a minute...

[Thinine]

I liked Haugli's classes, though he can be a bit meandering. Perhaps not concise, but he definitely knew his stuff, at least when I took numerical methods and statics from him. 

[VoicesofGusto]

I liked Haugli's classes, though he can be a bit meandering. Perhaps not concise, but he definitely knew his stuff, at least when I took numerical methods and statics from him. 

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only crazy one here.

[MarcusAurelius]

So, do you expect to do any projects on your own in industry? If you hate working in groups that much you should probably rethink your major.

thanks for quoting zach directly back to me.

and no, i do not expect to do any projects with a partner that can't solve 2 equations for 2 unknowns. seriously. not exaggerating there. partner was that bad.



i've seen haugli do statics. sturges would fucking weep like a 9 year old girl whose pet bunny just died if he saw that trainwreck.

[StarmanDeIuxe]

Of course Haugli knew what he was teaching... he was teaching the very first intro classes. I corrected him so many times. After a while I just couldn't trust what he was saying.

[dhaugli]

Hey, thanks for the honest assessment. The picture is a bit overboard though.

My notes are my own by the way.

Regards,

Dana

[MarcusAurelius]

lol no way that's haugli, funny joke though

[The Jedi Master]

Unless someone hacked his e-mail address, believe it.

[MarcusAurelius]

where's email listed?

[The Jedi Master]

Only moderators and admins can see it.

[MarcusAurelius]

then sorry dana, it's all in good fun

[dhaugli]

Yep, it's me. I was searching the web for something else when I came across links to my name in strangetalk. You can imagine my surprise. I will pay more attention to this forum in the future, and perhaps even actively participate. More later....

Dana

[Fancy Bits]

Teachers posting will set a bad precedent. Teachers lurking is one thing, but if they post regularly the "honest assesments" will decline rapidly.

[VoicesofGusto]

How so?

[themadninja]

fuck, I'll say it right here: I had about 3 good teachers at ISU, and the rest were pompous know-nothing dicks. I'd list names if I cared enough to remember them.

[The Jedi Master]

fuck, I'll say it right here: I had about 3 good teachers at ISU, and the rest were pompous know-nothing dicks. I'd list names if I cared enough to remember them.

That's the CS dept in a nutshell. I assume not all 3 of your good teachers were in CS?

[Fancy Bits]

How so?

Well, if you graduate its one thing, but I for one don't care to trust any profesor (who is still human, with human flaws) to treat me respectfully and grade me as such if I ripped them apart previously.

Its sorta the same reason evaluations are anonymous and not seen until after grading.

[themadninja]

fuck, I'll say it right here: I had about 3 good teachers at ISU, and the rest were pompous know-nothing dicks. I'd list names if I cared enough to remember them.

That's the CS dept in a nutshell. I assume not all 3 of your good teachers were in CS?

Only 1, in fact... Gary Leavens was an excellent teacher. The rest of them can go to hell.

[MarcusAurelius]

on that note, is Owens a drug addict?

[VoicesofGusto]

How so?

Well, if you graduate its one thing, but I for one don't care to trust any profesor (who is still human, with human flaws) to treat me respectfully and grade me as such if I ripped them apart previously.

Its sorta the same reason evaluations are anonymous and not seen until after grading.

How are they supposed to be able to identify who you are?

[themadninja]

on that note, is Owens a drug addict?

I like Owens as an individual. He was a pretty lousy teacher for those who didn't already know what he was teaching, though.

And no, not a drug addict, although he's definitely been to Amsterdam a couple times.

[MarcusAurelius]

yah i liked him, but i'm talking about that breathing thing. you know what i'm talking about? when he'd run around in front of the class and stop for a second and do a "lamasse"(sp?) pregnant style breathing thing. made me think he was on drugs.

[themadninja]

I think he just got a bit overexcited. Also maybe he was asthmatic. I don't think he was stoned while teaching... he was odd, but I think he was more professional than that.

[Toilet of Sadness]

fuck, I'll say it right here: I had about 3 good teachers at ISU, and the rest were pompous know-nothing dicks. I'd list names if I cared enough to remember them.

That's the CS dept in a nutshell. I assume not all 3 of your good teachers were in CS?

Only 1, in fact... Gary Leavens was an excellent teacher. The rest of them can go to hell.

I have no problem agreeing with this.

[Talenos]

I like it when proffesors find the board and see what other people think about them. I'm sure they'd rather know what they were doing wrong then not. Sometimes there has been some sucessful changes that were made.

[dhaugli]

Interesting turn in the conversation. Does the fact that a teacher (or in my case, an apparently a very bad teacher) choose to post mean that students will feel less free to express themselves? What is the difference between having a teacher lurk and having a teacher participate? Either way, it's pretty easy to figure out who is posting from the clues they leave behind, if not from the login name itself. At least this way, you are aware I am here.

I have no desire to harm anyone, or to use anything said about me against the person saying it. I try to live my life by the rule "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I do not always succeed, but I try. If anything, I am my own harshest critic.

I have never claimed to be anything more than I am. As a lecturer, I am NOT an expert and I am NOT a professor. I am awed by the faculty around me, and have discussed my feelings in this regard with Dr. Shih (Aer E Department Chair) several times. Imagine what it is like to work with some of the finest minds in the country, while plagued with absent-mindedness and a poor memory.

Anyone who knows me, knows that my life goal is to farm. So why, then, am I at ISU? Getting started in farming is expensive and daunting, which is why so few people try. I decided a long time ago to try to help other people while I earn the money to get started. I did that first as an R.N., then as an academic adviser, and now as a freshman teacher (and fill-in for summer statics).

I have been asked to teach two courses (160/161) with a variety of topics so broad and so involved that each could be (and often is) a separate course. Add to that the wide variation in student backgrounds, and teaching these courses becomes a major challenge.

The first year I taught 161, I taught at a very high level (for me anyway), not taking into consideration that most students lacked a background in differential equations, etc. The evaluations that year all said something like, “the pre-requisites are insufficient, the math is too hard.â€

[VoicesofGusto]

Dana, it's good to hear you're adding a FORTRAN text. However, I must say I found your online notes very useful through 361.

[MarcusAurelius]

I get most benefit from the compiler documentation from the manufacturer than anything else. Complete listing of how to build a fortran app without the extra dialogue on programming logic. much more convenient than having to thumb through the index of a textbook, and most beginners programming textbooks i've read are lacking in proper logic instruction anyway.

available here: http://docs.sun.com/source/819-0490/

if i remember right the 160 programming was so very basic, might as well just give up on anybody that doesn't grasp the concepts in a couple days. the college/department as a whole have trouble with taking it too easy on guys that just can't cut it. i wanna weep seeing some of these guys in my 300/400 level aero classes that miraculously made it through this far. makes the degrees for the rest of us look like a pretty piece of paper.

[VoicesofGusto]

The problem isn't that teachers don't try to weed students out, it's that students don't try to weed students out. There is simply too much, 'oh you don't get it? Here, I'll give you my entire code you so can get an A in the class' going on.

[MarcusAurelius]

heh, i sure wasn't about to give any help to someone that doesn't deserve it. bad practice for a future of curve-graded classes anyhow. but that's easily remedied by having to write a surprise program for an exam.

there is some lame shit in the lower classes though, i had statics with hilliard and i'd be surprised if any less than a third cheated on those multiple choice exams, easy though they were.

[VoicesofGusto]

I was actually a grader/proctor for Hilliard. On the grading side, people were obviously cheating. I mean... there were papers that not only had the same very wrong answer, they were identical. Every diagram, every squiggle was exactly the same.

As far as the tests went, I couldn't 'catch' anyone for cheating. If I suspected anyone, the best I could do was stand over his shoulder so he knew I was there and put pressure on him. That's it.

[MarcusAurelius]

yeah, obviously in a room of like 400 bubble sheets and 2 proctors you're not gonna stop somebody that wants to look down to the next row for bubbles.

the assignments weren't worth many points anyways i didn't think, so who cares if two people work together on them or not, or really outright copy each other, since exams were like 90% of the grade. that's why we need flunkout material as early as possible.

obviously we don't have the manpower to individually grade a thousand statics exams unless they're bubble sheets, and those tools that cheated moved on and are still taking up otherwise valuable seats.

[VoicesofGusto]

Actually, Hilliard did find a fairly successful way to catch cheaters on exams. I don't know if anyone figured it out yet, but I really don't want to give it away.

[MarcusAurelius]

i would guess he just switched around the numbers on problems from the same diagram that or having a couple different exams like in other classes would be about the easiest solution possible.

[dhaugli]

We used to teach FORTRAN in Engr 160. We had a consistent problem finding texts that the students would 1) read and 2) learn from. We usually used an abridged version of a text by Nyhoff, but even the abridged version was more comprehensive than the typical student wanted. The extra information seemed to confuse people, except those who already knew something about programming.

I created my own notes to try to strip the concepts down to the basics. Recently, Nyhoff created a book that is esentially a very focused, practical application of his old text. It's part of the E-Series (like the SolidWorks & MatLab texts), and that is what we will be using. Should be $35-$40 in the bookstore (new).

Thanks for the link to FORTRAN...Intel used to have a similar link, but I have not looked for that in a year or two.

Regards,

Dana

[Turbo]

Anyone who knows me, knows that my life goal is to farm. So why, then, am I at ISU? Getting started in farming is expensive and daunting, which is why so few people try.

I'm not sure what to say, other than i have that dream, too.

[Thinine]

SolidWorks

SolidWorks is the only part of your classes that I didn't like. I would have much, much rather learned more about numberical programming and Fortran.

[MarcusAurelius]

solidworks and matlab are pretty much the most useful things you can learn as a freshman, like it or not.

[Thinine]

MatLab I can see, because there's a lot to it, but SolidWorks can be learned easily in a class that actually needs it, instead of folding its introduction into another class.

[themadninja]

fuck fortran

have I mentioned that yet? I had to help a friend debug a fortran app... it may truly be the worst language ever. even worse than scheme.

[Legacy]

solidworks and matlab are pretty much the most useful things you can learn as a freshman, like it or not.

Try telling that to Judy Vance since she feels engineers don't do CAD in the real world so why bother teaching them.

[drmiles]

Actually, Hilliard did find a fairly successful way to catch cheaters on exams. I don't know if anyone figured it out yet, but I really don't want to give it away.

Everybody knows. Not sure how anybody can think otherwise. My entire dorm floor soph year came back pissed about it... and I laughed, for exactly the reason stated above (that they were so easy, why cheat?). Haha actually, one of my friends (who is no longer at ISU) knew about it and still copied every answer off other people. I think he got a 2/15 or so...

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

solidworks and matlab are pretty much the most useful things you can learn as a freshman, like it or not.

Try telling that to Judy Vance since she feels engineers don't do CAD in the real world so why bother teaching them.

That is so wrong it hurts. CAD is a HUGE part of design engineering.

[drmiles]

solidworks and matlab are pretty much the most useful things you can learn as a freshman, like it or not.

When have you used SolidWorks since freshman year? I think it is useful to know, and should be in one of the new computer classes that I have discussed with Dr. Shih. We'll see what happens on that front, though.

MaddestNinja - yes, Fortran sucks. Unfortunately, it also does a very good job at being efficient and does exactly what we want it to do.

Teachers posting will set a bad precedent. Teachers lurking is one thing, but if they post regularly the "honest assesments" will decline rapidly.

I agree - while this forum is very open to anybody, it seems like the best way to get honest feedback is to be a fly on the wall. I know everything is supposed to be objective (especially in engineering), but the involvement of people who control our grades and finances is not going to promote "honest assesments."

Dana - Finding a Fortran text would be great. Instead of having a really basic one, though, why not just have students get the one that is 'required' (though never used) for 361? Students love it when you don't have to buy 2 (or more) books on the same topic, regardless of how cheap the first one is. I know it may not be the direction you were trying to go (with simplicity and such), but it has good info. Also, if you can't deal with a book like that, you aren't going to last very long, anyway.

edit: I also wanted to say that the online notes are the best thing from that class, and I continued to use them in 361 when I had no idea how to do a few basic things in Fortran since we hadn't really needed it since 161. That's another issue, though.

[MarcusAurelius]

well, solidworks i haven't used much at all since then, but every engineer should know how to work a cad program, any cad program, and since you really can learn the fundamentals of it in a couple weeks, there's no point in making engr students do a seperate course for it. a few days of instruction should be plenty to enable a student to recreate something down the line.

as for matlab... it's so damn useful, but really, takes even less time to get started. like a one day instruction on how to write functions and such, and the rest is explained very well by /help. everything i know about matlab came from the help function.


and yes, that blue fortran90/95 text for 361 would be good, but, it's just like that syntax sheet from sun. i don't remember there being any instructions on computer logic for beginners, but just how to use the different functions. so basically you'd get the same thing you get for free online, but without the luxury of being able to ctrl+f and find what you want.

as for fortran sucking... yeah. it has very obvious remnants of being a language designed for punchcards. like having to terminate lines manually (limited to like 120 characters or something, wtf, could've changed that after f77...), instead of the nice C ";" thing. but from what i gather it's pretty decent with math efficiency, and i'm not sure if c has the ability to freely switch between single double and quad precision like fortran does. probably wrong though.
biggest advantage to having fortran for beginners though, is that it's super easy to read compared to other languages. someone with zero programming experience and a third of a brain can look at a complicated fortran code and know what it does immediately. c and java and perl and stuff are probably more intimidating to the noobs.

but fuck it, i want more dropouts, forget the fortran and do assembly.

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

You have got to take the cake for most smug engineering student on here. And that's quite a feat.

And if you think a couple days of CAD instruction is plenty then you are just as detached from industry as Ms. Vance.

[MarcusAurelius]

thanks? i had some autocad and prodesktop experience before coming here, so learning solidworks wasn't anything new...

but what's so hard to learn about those CAD programs? it's just like programming. there's a very limited amount of functions you can use, the only challenge is in combining those functions to do what you want. how long does it take to show a student how to build a 3d object, cut pieces out, extrude, revolve, assemble multiple objects, what more is there? making something really huge and complex isn't necessarily more difficult than something small, it's just more time-consuming. it's still using the basic functions of cad.

although obviously more time can be spent on the relation functions and tolerances and all that, but that's better left to draftsmen. i'm just talking about being able to create a basic 3d model of whatever you want. learning to do that shouldn't take more than a couple days. unless you want someone holding your hand.

[dhaugli]

I will ask Dr. Mitra about his Fortran text....is it Chapman by any chance? The problem I see with Freshman (at least in 160) is that they struggle with using a reference like that - such references work incredibly well when you can formulate a question (i.e., have experience), but how do you formulate a question without knowing the words? Perhaps such a reference would be a good addition to 161; the Nyhoff E-Series text is for 160.

Here is the link to the bits/bytes/words reference I based my notes off of:

http://jdurrett.ba.ttu.edu/courseware/datas/default.htm

By the way, the point of that discussion is not how data is stored in the computer, but to demonstrate that integers are exact and that real numbers have round-off. Another point is that the choice of data type (single, double, etc.) influences the precision and speed of calculation. The third point, or maybe a goal, is to challenge people to figure out how to use an allocatable array to calculate and display binary numbers.

As for lasting long, I thought I might find a farm large enough to generate a living wage this year, but rising land prices and interest rates made that impossible. ISU limits lecturers to a total of 6 years. I have been a lecturer for four (before that, I was P&S). After 6 years, a lecturer must either be promoted to Senior Lecturer or leave. My six years will be up in the Fall of 2008. In the meantime, I will continue to strive to make a difference in the lives of students, and welcome feedback (negative and positive).

Regards,

Dana

[dhaugli]

Anyone who knows me, knows that my life goal is to farm. So why, then, am I at ISU? Getting started in farming is expensive and daunting, which is why so few people try.

I'm not sure what to say, other than i have that dream, too.

Turbo - you are welcome to stop by if you want (2328 Howe). Email or call first (4-2208) because I am in and out this time of year. I'd love to visit with you about your aspirations, and how you plan to make them a reality. Maybe we could start a thread somewhere on StrangeTalk about this sort of thing - does that kind of thread already exist?

Regards,

Dana

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

thanks? i had some autocad and prodesktop experience before coming here, so learning solidworks wasn't anything new...

but what's so hard to learn about those CAD programs? it's just like programming. there's a very limited amount of functions you can use, the only challenge is in combining those functions to do what you want. how long does it take to show a student how to build a 3d object, cut pieces out, extrude, revolve, assemble multiple objects, what more is there? making something really huge and complex isn't necessarily more difficult than something small, it's just more time-consuming. it's still using the basic functions of cad.

although obviously more time can be spent on the relation functions and tolerances and all that, but that's better left to draftsmen. i'm just talking about being able to create a basic 3d model of whatever you want. learning to do that shouldn't take more than a couple days. unless you want someone holding your hand.

This is so wrong it hurts. You obviously have very little experience with CAD. Would you know how to use a sheetmetal package? How about an FEA package? Shape design? Mold design? I could keep going...

[dhaugli]

FYI, as an academic adviser, I had a student who felt he had received an unfair grade (different department, different faculty). I wrote a letter of reference for him, and helped him figure out/work through the appeals process. Seemed like I was doing everything by the book (university catalog), but in the end, a university committee met and said I should not have been involved. I received a reprimand from the Vice Provost.

Regards,

Dana

[MarcusAurelius]

This is so wrong it hurts. You obviously have very little experience with CAD. Would you know how to use a sheetmetal package? How about an FEA package? Shape design? Mold design? I could keep going...

come on, it doesn't really hurt does it?

no i really don't know how to do those things, but those are the objectives i meant that were best left to draftsmen; at least, not to aero's. that kind of stuff obviously would need to be addressed in a full course or more, not in the week or two of a freshman class intended to be an intro to cad. i'm just saying a couple of hours of instruction is sufficient to learn the basic tools and methods of making 3d assemblies and such.


and yeah dana, bureaucracy is a beast. but i've discussed specific grades with a half dozen different profs and i've never had one be outright unreasonable and without basis in their decision. some i continued to disagree with, but still, no reason to involve anyone but the prof and the student. maybe i'd feel differently if it was a grade for some stupid subjective thing like an english paper, but i'd probably be high and sitting in a drum circle if i was in those classes

[Legacy]

This is so wrong it hurts. You obviously have very little experience with CAD. Would you know how to use a sheetmetal package? How about an FEA package? Shape design? Mold design? I could keep going...

come on, it doesn't really hurt does it?

no i really don't know how to do those things, but those are the objectives i meant that were best left to draftsmen; at least, not to aero's. that kind of stuff obviously would need to be addressed in a full course or more, not in the week or two of a freshman class intended to be an intro to cad. i'm just saying a couple of hours of instruction is sufficient to learn the basic tools and methods of making 3d assemblies and such.

As a graduate in industry I can tell you that draftsmen are becoming few and far between because most engineers are expected to not only know how to use a cad package for modeling they are also expected to know how to put that model into a print for the floor. Almost every company (except for one the size of Deere or CAT) expect the engineer to produce not only the 3D models but the 2D prints as well. Deere is slowly trasitioning to where engineers will be doing the prints as well or so I'm told. My company is in the process of transistioning from AutoCAD to Solidworks, or I should say I'm in the process of trasitioning my company from AutoCAD to Solidworks. Right now I have both open on my computer, and for the past 3 months I've been working on converting all this 2D legacy data over to 3D models when I'm not working on new stuff. If I hadn't taught myself how to be proficent in several CAD packages I wouldn't have a job. If you're an ME, IE and probably Aero E or Civil you need to know CAD that's all there is to it. Go take a walk around the career fair and ask companies you're talking with how important it is for engineers to know CAD. I'd even seen signs at those booths stating if you didn't know a certain CAD package not to bother submitting a resume. The first package I'd learn would be AutoCAD and then pick just about any of the Solid modeling one (well SolidWorks or Pro-E) and learn it.

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

This is so wrong it hurts. You obviously have very little experience with CAD. Would you know how to use a sheetmetal package? How about an FEA package? Shape design? Mold design? I could keep going...

come on, it doesn't really hurt does it?

no i really don't know how to do those things, but those are the objectives i meant that were best left to draftsmen; at least, not to aero's. that kind of stuff obviously would need to be addressed in a full course or more, not in the week or two of a freshman class intended to be an intro to cad. i'm just saying a couple of hours of instruction is sufficient to learn the basic tools and methods of making 3d assemblies and such.

You still need good proficiency with CAD systems if you plan on changing existing designs. At the place where I work the older engineers are the only ones who need a bit of help with the CAD system. The younger ones are expected to be proficient and able to make designs, changes, and drawings on their own. A good amount of the reason someone gets hired is because they won't need to be trained with CAD. Hiring a draftsman and an engineer to do work that an engineer can do themselves isn't very cost efficient. Now if only the university would offer better CAD training the job placement rate would probably improve.

Edit: And I completely agree with Legacy although I would put Pro-E and Solidworks ahead of AutoCAD in importance but that's just a matter of personal opinion.

[MarcusAurelius]

any recommendations on an intensive CAD course at isu then? i'm definitely interested in gaining proficiency in those more applicable uses of CAD in industry. or a recommendation for a learn it yourself book would be appreciated, unless you think i'd be laughed at putting cad proficiency on a resume without a sanctioned class to back it.

[Legacy]

The reason I put AutoCAD first is it is very unforgiving and teaches good habits that make using a 3D package much easier.

any recommendations on an intensive CAD course at isu then? i'm definitely interested in gaining proficiency in those more applicable uses of CAD in industry. or a recommendation for a learn it yourself book would be appreciated, unless you think i'd be laughed at putting cad proficiency on a resume without a sanctioned class to back it.

There are no intensive CAD courses left at ISU they fired the only guy who was qualified to teach them because of "budget cuts". The best place on campus to learn is to get a job working at CIRAS but they typically only hire 1-2 engineering students at once. Check the career services job board I believe they will be hiring a new student in the fall to replace me and the other guy that graduated this year.

[MarcusAurelius]

edit: that's gay, having no real CAD courses.

is there any certification type thing that would look good that I could educate myself for? i'll look after that job but i'm assuming odds are pretty low.