@Iranian dude

[Santa]

What's the statute of limitations on paying reparations? How far back should it go?

If the United States gave Iran reparation money today, what benefit will the world gain?

Will we be freer? Will more people get fed? Will we have breakthroughs in science?

Doubtful. Thus, giving them money over about a million other causes that could use it is a terrible idea and you should retract it as bollocks.

[Reagraham Lincool]

What's the statute of limitations on paying reparations? How far back should it go?

Certainly as far back as operation Ajax. Shit, there's still living people from before that.

If the United States gave Iran reparation money today, what benefit will the world gain?

You mean besides the improvement in the level of justice?

Will we be freer?
]Will more people get fed?
Will we have breakthroughs in science?

Who? The US? The world?

Doubtful.

If you say so.

Thus, giving them money over about a million other causes that could use it is a terrible idea and you should retract it as bollocks.

Well sure, even it's fucked up form, Iran is a lot better off than other places. But we don't tell people who sue in court: "sorry but your settlement could be better used somewhere else so you shouldn't get it, either." Justice is a virtue of its own.

[Santa]

So, essentially, you're giving the United States 100 percent fault over the cold war?

If we're going to pay for every negative we've caused, shouldn't we also be payed for every positive we've caused along the way?

[MarcusAurelius]

So, essentially, you're giving the United States 100 percent fault over the cold war?

If we're going to pay for every negative we've caused, shouldn't we also be payed for every positive we've caused along the way?

reparations from europe for half a century of defense would be nice.

[Reagraham Lincool]

So, essentially, you're giving the United States 100 percent fault over the cold war?

There's not really any question about it in my mind. The US position during the Cold War was that other countries are sovereign right up until they choose an economic system that doesn't benefit US investors. Our actions basically guaranteed the conversion of every proto-communist state into that of a brutal, fascist, state capitalist system (which of course we were happen to call communism in order to discredit the concept).

If we're going to pay for every negative we've caused, shouldn't we also be payed for every positive we've caused along the way?

No. It might be different if we had been hired for that purpose or something. However Germany and Japan ended up, they didn't really have any say in the matter so it doesn't make sense that they should "owe" us in any way.

[Santa]

Russia had no part in that?

[Reagraham Lincool]

Russia had no part in that?

No of course it did. We just made any other possibility impossible.

[Santa]

Are you sure they didn't make any other possibility impossible?

Was the United States responsible for Stalin coming to power?

[Reagraham Lincool]

Are you sure they didn't make any other possibility impossible?

I think Marxist political theory (which I'm distinguishing from the economic theory) certainly makes it easy to slip into outright fascism (precisely as predicted by Bakunin back in 1873). The Russian revolution was a pretty messy affair though and there were other factions within in that might have gained power.

Was the United States responsible for Stalin coming to power?

Not directly responsible, no. I think the US orientation certainly helped solidify his grip on power, however.

[MarcusAurelius]

reagraham lincool: bastion of logic.

[Santa]

You don't think it would be a better idea to extend more diplomacy towards Iran in lieu of reparations?

[Santa]

Do you realize I just took this subject, which we have no affect on and will never happen and made you discuss it for the last half hour?

POT KETTLE NERD

[MarcusAurelius]

lolraep

[Reagraham Lincool]

You don't think it would be a better idea to extend more diplomacy towards Iran in lieu of reparations?

We could do both. Being more diplomatic is a good start though.

[Reagraham Lincool]

Do you realize I just took this subject, which we have no affect on and will never happen and made you discuss it for the last half hour?

POT KETTLE NERD

YOU BROUGHT IT UP!

[MarcusAurelius]

i think the rest of the world should pay the US reparations for inventing the majority of important shit in the past century.

[Santa]

They should also recognize we own the moon and if they send anything there, it's an act of aggression and war.

No really, our primary goal should be to get a mobile entry point on the moon to intercept China's moon mission and ask their astronauts for a visa and declaration of goods as soon as they land on our soil.

[MarcusAurelius]

or file suit for patent infringements before they take off.

[Reagraham Lincool]

They should also recognize we own the moon and if they send anything there, it's an act of aggression and war.

No really, our primary goal should be to get a mobile entry point on the moon to intercept China's moon mission and ask their astronauts for a visa and declaration of goods as soon as they land on our soil.

No way dude. Space lasers ftw. They'll try to fly up to the moon and we'll be all like PEWPEW and then they'll be totally dead but it will be space so when they poop themselves it'll freeze.

[Santa]

Since we got there first and own the moon, we should get paid reparations for the positive effects of the tide.

[MarcusAurelius]

on a more serious note, the combined investment represented in the freely available information at ntrs.nasa.gov is astonishing. china wouldn't have a space program without it.

[Santa]

China leads our pets and children.

[Turbo]

Dave: ParEcon
GCPR: Iran
MA: Treadmills
Lizer: Fucking horses
Daoist: Cheesebread

Xopher: Xopher's mom

I'd talk about her no matter what

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

Bloodthirsty not in either group (I'm just arguing with him because he seems unreasonably angry about my claim that it's absurd for us to talk about things we cannot affect and which do not affect us).

Sorry, I just don't react well to being told what is acceptable thought and what is not.

[Reagraham Lincool]

Bloodthirsty not in either group (I'm just arguing with him because he seems unreasonably angry about my claim that it's absurd for us to talk about things we cannot affect and which do not affect us).

Sorry, I just don't react well to being told what is acceptable thought and what is not.

Well that's totally what I was doing. What I said was what is acceptable to think, not just identifying a class of discussion I think is pointless at best. You have shamed me, sir.

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

I don't think you know how you come off to the rest of us.

A diplomat you are not.

[Reagraham Lincool]

I don't think you know how you come off to the rest of us.

This is very important to me. Please elaborate.

A diplomat you are not.

And I try so hard...

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

So if you're not trying to convince anyone of anything and you're not going to let anyone here change your mind...why do you post?

[Reagraham Lincool]

So if you're not trying to convince anyone of anything and you're not going to let anyone here change your mind...why do you post?

Why, whatever are you talking about? I respect and and have faith in the willingness of each and every poster here to approach every topic with an open mind and a willingness to put the time and effort into producing the kind of sincere, reasoned, and cogent arguments that make StrangeTalk such an intellectually stimulating place discuss matters of import.

[daoist]

it's absurd for us to talk about things we cannot affect and which do not affect us.

Are you really pushing this point? It's a bit ridiculous.

Which point? Us affecting it, it affecting us, or the absurdity of the discussion?

The absurdity of the discussion.

If the first two points are not ridiculous, they raise the question about what the point of the discussion is.

It's as if History and Philosophy have no purpose.

I don't think those statements hold for History or Philosophy.

I'm also a fan of special pleading.

[daoist]

How do you rectify the fact that you're vehemently arguing against every person on here, a great portion of them severely liberal, and grouping them all together as "dick-stroking"?

Pretty sure you support Iran more than GCPR does and it's his fucking country.

1. GCPR grew up in Ames, Iowa. To call it "his" country is kind of disingenuous, dude.
2. I don't "support" Iran. Iran is, in many ways, severely fucked up (as you would expect of any theocratic government). The thing is, it happens to largely be our fault. That point doesn't get mentioned in these discussions ever (except by GPCR and I). That raises the question: why not? That's an important question because it directly speaks to what we can do about it (both in this specific case and in potential cases). And again, I think that's the important question.

We cannot do anything about the USA's current actions. Therefore, by your standard, we should not talk about those.

We cannot do anything about the USA's past actions. Therefore, by your standard, we should not talk about those either.

[Reagraham Lincool]

it's absurd for us to talk about things we cannot affect and which do not affect us.

Are you really pushing this point? It's a bit ridiculous.

Which point? Us affecting it, it affecting us, or the absurdity of the discussion?

The absurdity of the discussion.

If the first two points are not ridiculous, they raise the question about what the point of the discussion is.

It's as if History and Philosophy have no purpose.

I don't think those statements hold for History or Philosophy.

I'm also a fan of special pleading.

You're right. Clearly, History and Philosophy aren't going to have any impact on what we decide to do.

[Reagraham Lincool]

How do you rectify the fact that you're vehemently arguing against every person on here, a great portion of them severely liberal, and grouping them all together as "dick-stroking"?

Pretty sure you support Iran more than GCPR does and it's his fucking country.

1. GCPR grew up in Ames, Iowa. To call it "his" country is kind of disingenuous, dude.
2. I don't "support" Iran. Iran is, in many ways, severely fucked up (as you would expect of any theocratic government). The thing is, it happens to largely be our fault. That point doesn't get mentioned in these discussions ever (except by GPCR and I). That raises the question: why not? That's an important question because it directly speaks to what we can do about it (both in this specific case and in potential cases). And again, I think that's the important question.

We cannot do anything about the USA's current actions. Therefore, by your standard, we should not talk about those.

We cannot do anything about the USA's past actions. Therefore, by your standard, we should not talk about those either.

Exactly. Our future actions have no relationship to our past or current actions.

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

You won't be able to change out behavior on this board but yet you continue moralize. Irony?

[Pesto]

Our actions basically guaranteed the conversion of every proto-communist state into that of a brutal, fascist, state capitalist system (which of course we were happen to call communism in order to discredit the concept).

Oh, god. This sentence is just rich with irony.

[Santa]

I really hope he's the next Unixly Person.

He'll spend a few days living like a homeless person, promote mass genocide of capitalists and then suddenly convert into a hardcore Libertarian.

[MarcusAurelius]

Our actions basically guaranteed the conversion of every proto-communist state into that of a brutal, fascist, state capitalist system (which of course we were happen to call communism in order to discredit the concept).

Oh, god. This sentence is just rich with irony.

what i'm seeing wouldn't be described as "irony."

[Wargazm]

I really hope he's the next Unixly Person.

He'll spend a few days living like a homeless person, promote mass genocide of capitalists and then suddenly convert into a hardcore Libertarian.

hahaha oh shit, I remember that dude.

[Pesto]

Our actions basically guaranteed the conversion of every proto-communist state into that of a brutal, fascist, state capitalist system (which of course we were happen to call communism in order to discredit the concept).

Oh, god. This sentence is just rich with irony.

what i'm seeing wouldn't be described as "irony."

This is the guy that calls having a job "exploitation" and "slavery."

[GPCR]

Our actions basically guaranteed the conversion of every proto-communist state into that of a brutal, fascist, state capitalist system (which of course we were happen to call communism in order to discredit the concept).

Oh, god. This sentence is just rich with irony.

what i'm seeing wouldn't be described as "irony."

This is the guy that calls having a job "exploitation" and "slavery."

Yes, I'm sure that's an accurate representation of his views. I'm sure he considers any form of employment, in any system or structure to be 'slavery'. I'm sure that beyond holding this view, he's expressed it plainly on this forum. I'm sure that you can point us to the where and the when. Either that, or you're just plain retarded, right?

[MarcusAurelius]

Yes, I'm sure that's an accurate representation of his views. I'm sure he considers any form of employment, in any system or structure to be 'slavery'.

in any system that has ever existed, currently exists, and likely ever will exist, yes.

[GPCR]

Yes, I'm sure that's an accurate representation of his views. I'm sure he considers any form of employment, in any system or structure to be 'slavery'.

in any system that has ever existed, currently exists, and likely ever will exist, yes.

Even if that were the case, Pesto's absurd reductionism requires many more claims beyond recognizing conditions in a given system where coercion is a factor in employment or the arrangements of power that may stem from it. There is a difference between pointing out certain realities and the notion they can vary with circumstance, and the blanket claim that all players in a given system are 'slaves'. Irrespective of any views shared on this forum, I'll add that his claim is prima facie ridiculous, given that slaves require slaveholders.

[MarcusAurelius]

slaves require slaveholders.

all employers

[GPCR]

…and positions of management don't constitute a subset of available jobs?

[MarcusAurelius]

it ain't my crackpot theory, dude. don't have to lecture me on the absurdity.

[Reagraham Lincool]

You won't be able to change out behavior on this board but yet you continue moralize. Irony?

Our actions basically guaranteed the conversion of every proto-communist state into that of a brutal, fascist, state capitalist system (which of course we were happen to call communism in order to discredit the concept).

Oh, god. This sentence is just rich with irony.

what i'm seeing wouldn't be described as "irony."

This is the guy that calls having a job "exploitation" and "slavery."

You guys have a really good grip on irony. You should teach a class on it or something. I know I'd come!

[Reagraham Lincool]

Yes, I'm sure that's an accurate representation of his views. I'm sure he considers any form of employment, in any system or structure to be 'slavery'.

in any system that has ever existed, currently exists, and likely ever will exist, yes.

This is an excellent and highly accurate characterization of my views. As always, you've really given it the MA touch and managed to crystallize viewpoints in an honest, straightforward manner (even those you disagree with!).

[Pesto]

You won't be able to change out behavior on this board but yet you continue moralize. Irony?

Our actions basically guaranteed the conversion of every proto-communist state into that of a brutal, fascist, state capitalist system (which of course we were happen to call communism in order to discredit the concept).

Oh, god. This sentence is just rich with irony.

what i'm seeing wouldn't be described as "irony."

This is the guy that calls having a job "exploitation" and "slavery."

You guys have a really good grip on irony. You should teach a class on it or something. I know I'd come!

I suppose you're right. It's not ironic, because by this point I should expect you to make such disingenuous arguments.

[Reagraham Lincool]

I suppose you're right. It's not ironic, because by this point I should expect you to make such disingenuous arguments.

You can tell it's disingenuous by how accurate your characterization is.

[Pesto]

Alright then. Set me straight. How did I mischaracterize your views?

[Reagraham Lincool]

Alright then. Set me straight. How did I mischaracterize your views?

What are you talking about? You got them just right! No matter the circumstance, even if the workers own their own means of production and have an equal say in the distribution of the firm's earnings, it is my clearly stated position that the mere fact that they could be said to "have a job" is tantamount to slavery.

You have expertly deduced this from my (admittedly) verbose missives. In fact, your talents are so keen I must conclude that they're being wasted here. Surely your ability to so superbly and succinctly distill the fundamental essence of a given position into a thought that somehow still manages to capture all of the subtlety and nuance of the original could be turned to more productive ends. Have you given any consideration to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

[Pesto]

Then let me amend my statement.

This is the guy that calls having a job [under our current economic system] "exploitation" and "slavery."

[Mr. Bloodthirsty]

So are you just going to go to full on sarcasm 100% of the time now?

edit: @RL but I suppose that was obvious

[Reagraham Lincool]

Then let me amend my statement.

This is the guy that calls having a job [under our current economic system] "exploitation" and "slavery."

You know it's absurd because it's an accusation, too.

[Reagraham Lincool]

So are you just going to go to full on sarcasm 100% of the time now?

edit: @RL but I suppose that was obvious

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Pesto]

Then let me amend my statement.

This is the guy that calls having a job [under our current economic system] "exploitation" and "slavery."

You know it's absurd because it's an accusation, too.

What are you referring to here?

[Epaminondas]

FPM posted about a bike manufacturer that used ParEcon as part of their system. If you worked for said company would that amount to slavery? The system you advocate for has been tried at least.

[Reagraham Lincool]

Then let me amend my statement.

This is the guy that calls having a job [under our current economic system] "exploitation" and "slavery."

You know it's absurd because it's an accusation, too.

What are you referring to here?

Your characterization of what I think. You've very deftly managed to insinuate that such a claim is absurd on its face through your accusation that I believe it. The sound of your scoffs rings through my very soul, cleansing me of the beliefs you've so thoughtfully seen fit to dismiss without wasting a moment of your precious time. You have remade my heart in your own image and for that, I am truly grateful.

[Reagraham Lincool]

FPM posted about a bike manufacturer that used ParEcon as part of their system. If you worked for said company would that amount to slavery?

Apparently so!

The system you advocate for has been tried at least.

Yes, that highly specific system that I constantly advocate has indeed been tried quite a bit. You should continue to bring up more examples of my system. Please.

[Uncle Sherm]

If the United States gave Iran reparation money today, what benefit will the world gain?

You mean besides the improvement in the level of justice?

How is the level of justice measured?

I really wish I had time to post here more often. Dave condemns the US for helping Stalin consolidate power in the Soviet Union, condemns the US for assisting Afghanistan when the Soviet Union attempts to spread its fascism to them, condemns the US for doing nothing when a brutal theocracy came to power, and thinks we owe Iran money for the damages done when their revolution established their own theocracy.

[Pesto]

Then let me amend my statement.

This is the guy that calls having a job [under our current economic system] "exploitation" and "slavery."

You know it's absurd because it's an accusation, too.

What are you referring to here?

Your characterization of what I think. You've very deftly managed to insinuate that such a claim is absurd on its face through your accusation that I believe it. The sound of your scoffs rings through my very soul, cleansing me of the beliefs you've so thoughtfully seen fit to dismiss without wasting a moment of your precious time. You have remade my heart in your own image and for that, I am truly grateful.

I work at a job where I sit in a chair I don't own, use a computer I don't own, and produce software that becomes the property of the company I work for. In exchange for this I'm given money a couple times a month.

By your definitions, am I being exploited?

[Reagraham Lincool]

If the United States gave Iran reparation money today, what benefit will the world gain?

You mean besides the improvement in the level of justice?

How is the level of justice measured?

Well it better not be in relative terms. Then it doesn't count.

I really wish I had time to post here more often.

We all do, Sherm. We all do.

Dave condemns the US for helping Stalin consolidate power in the Soviet Union

I'm sure those hardliners would have hated us anyway. Like the rest of the foreign world, they're just naturally anti-American.

condemns the US for assisting Afghanistan when the Soviet Union attempts to spread its fascism to them

We assisted Al Queda right into their country and those stupid Afghans didn't thank us once!

condemns the US for doing nothing when a brutal theocracy came to power

Yeah, this makes sense.

and thinks we owe Iran money for the damages done when their revolution established their own theocracy.

Don't forget about when they revolutioned away their own democracy too! Iran should be thanking us for freeing them from all that chaos.

[Reagraham Lincool]

I work at a job where I sit in a chair I don't own, use a computer I don't own, and produce software that becomes the property of the company I work for. In exchange for this I'm given money a couple times a month.

By your definitions, am I being exploited?

Nope! Since you're being given money a couple times a month, and since you agreed to those terms that means you can't possibly be being exploited.

[MarcusAurelius]

If the United States gave Iran reparation money today, what benefit will the world gain?

You mean besides the improvement in the level of justice?

How is the level of justice measured?

I really wish I had time to post here more often. Dave condemns the US for helping Stalin consolidate power in the Soviet Union, condemns the US for assisting Afghanistan when the Soviet Union attempts to spread its fascism to them, condemns the US for doing nothing when a brutal theocracy came to power, and thinks we owe Iran money for the damages done when their revolution established their own theocracy.

daoist once quoted someone saying "how do you convince someone they're not thinking clearly when they're not thinking clearly?"

dave's statements are irrational and logically contradictory. there are no arguments you can make.

[Reagraham Lincool]

dave's statements are irrational and logically contradictory. there are no arguments you can make.

You should keep telling everyone about people being irrational and close-minded. Everyone takes what you have to say very seriously because of your firm grip on rationality and a willingness to accept arguments that run counter to what you already believe.