How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[xfrodobagginsx]

ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

This all began with the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect, there was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain which this world sees is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross for you:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. That’s because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

3. If you will Admit to Jesus Christ that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior, Believe in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead and Accept Him as your Lord and Savior and you will be forgiven and taken to heaven to be with Him when you die.

Joh 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name”

Ro 10:9,10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.."

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus and asking Him to forgive you for your sins and save you. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you.

Will you do that today? If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS?

ARE YOU WILLING TO TURN TO JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION?

4. If you are willing to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior please humble yourself before God and pray this prayer to Him from your heart:

"Dear Lord Jesus, I believe that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive me for my sins, save me, take me to be with You when I die. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you prayed that prayer to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.

[nippletwister]

tldr

[MarcusAurelius]

wayyyyyy

tldr

[Uncle Sherm]

Drive-by evangelism doesn't work in person, much less so on the internet.

[Santa]

I don't get the allure of Heaven.

Bunch of self-righteous fun hating dickbags praising a dickish God?

I'll take my chances in Hell with my friends.

[Jobu]

How about islamic heaven? 72 virgins would be nice, but I'm not sure what I'd do after 3 months there.

[Mr. F]

About those "72 virgins": http://skepchick.org/2012/01/islamic-virgins/
So, yeah, Muslim Heaven is the place to go. Save me, Allah!

[nippletwister]

You read Skepchick? I love Skepchick. Talk to some of those girls online.

[Mr. F]

Yeah, I like it, too.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Islam will lead you straight to hell. There are no 72 virgins, it's more like 72 tormenting demons. It's pure unimaginable horror for all of eternity. Jesus came to save you from going there. Please place your faith in Him, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins.

[daoist]

Jesus is fake.

[Mr. F]

Islam will lead you straight to hell. There are no 72 virgins, it's more like 72 tormenting demons. It's pure unimaginable horror for all of eternity. Jesus came to save you from going there. Please place your faith in Him, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins.

You aren't winning me over. You gotta make a counter-offer. How many nubile virgins do I get in Christian Heaven?

[xfrodobagginsx]

Jesus is fake.

The evidence is not on your side. Jesus is supported by eyewitnesses, church history, secular history and bible.

[MarcusAurelius]

Islam will lead you straight to hell. There are no 72 virgins, it's more like 72 tormenting demons. It's pure unimaginable horror for all of eternity. Jesus came to save you from going there. Please place your faith in Him, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins.

You aren't winning me over. You gotta make a counter-offer. How many nubile virgins do I get in Christian Heaven?

obligatory "virgins are tormenting demons" remark

[Dr. Faustus]

I have to wonder who thought it would be a good idea to create an account just to post evangelical Christian propaganda. What type of person does this? I'm guessing it's either a former poster or someone who knew one well.

[Mr. F]

Nope. It's a drive-by spammer who has posted the same message on dozens of boards.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Ever ... =firefox-a

The Pre-Earth spammer was at least entertaining. This one's just the same boring cliches.

[daoist]

Jesus is fake.

The evidence is not on your side. Jesus is supported by eyewitnesses, church history, secular history and bible.

nope, nope, nope, and lol nope.

[Santa]

I've never understood the focus on Jesus dying on the cross. It just doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice.

[Uncle Sherm]

I've never understood the focus on Jesus dying on the cross. It just doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice.

You've probably never been nailed to a cross for 3 days before. If you accept the premise that he had the option at any time to smite the bitches that were driving railroad spikes into his extremities, but chose to allow it on behalf of the people that really didn't like him very much anyway, it becomes a little more clear.

Giving up that much power on behalf of people that don't really deserve it was the sacrifice.

[Santa]

I've never understood the focus on Jesus dying on the cross. It just doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice.

You've probably never been nailed to a cross for 3 days before. If you accept the premise that he had the option at any time to smite the bitches that were driving railroad spikes into his extremities, but chose to allow it on behalf of the people that really didn't like him very much anyway, it becomes a little more clear.

Giving up that much power on behalf of people that don't really deserve it was the sacrifice.

Don't deserve it? Holy shit, let's review this to fruition:

God created humans with free will.
God created a bunch of stupid fucking rules.
God requires your full praise, devotion and following of his retarded rule set, a good portion of which goes against the very nature in which he created you, in order to not spend an eternity in torment.

Given the complete dick that God is, did Jesus really suffer that much for us? 3 days?

Africa -> millions suffering and dying a way worse fate. In your faith, the non-Christians are going to Hell. So they'll die of hunger, gang rape, war. Many very slowly of a way worse fate than Jesus. Then they go to Hell to be tormented for the rest of their lives.

Sorry, but I think Jesus' sacrifice, which wasn't exactly voluntary, is ridiculously blown out of proportion. It was nice of him to take his execution like a man but for fuck's sake, get over it. In no way does it make up for his malevolent, bitter, dickish father form he's apparently protecting us from (In exchange for our full devotion to him). Any God that requires worship is a head case as it is.

[Mr. F]

Given the complete dick that God is, did Jesus really suffer that much for us? 3 days?

Well, he was crucified on Friday and died on Sunday. So that's 2 days unless you're playing semantic games (e.g., Friday, Saturday and Sunday are three days!).

[Santa]

Seems like a very minor sacrifice given his dick dad invented things like the Guinea worm.

[Uncle Sherm]

Don't deserve it? Holy shit, let's review this to fruition:

God created humans with free will.
God created a bunch of stupid fucking rules.
God requires your full praise, devotion and following of his retarded rule set, a good portion of which goes against the very nature in which he created you, in order to not spend an eternity in torment.

Free will and human nature is debatable. The Bible (which you have to accept is true in order to follow this reasoning) makes clear that Satan is the source of temptation. So your "free will" leading you to do something immoral is you being led astray by Satan. God created a bunch of "stupid fucking rules" only after humans learned the difference between good and evil (tree of knowledge episode in the garden of eden). Prior to that, the only rule was frolicking naked in our ignorance and running the planet.

Given the complete dick that God is, did Jesus really suffer that much for us? 3 days?

Actually, the death of Jesus only took a few hours. He was crucified and died the same day. According to the book of Mark, 9 AM he was crucified, and he died at 3 PM. He was dead until the 3rd day after that. Still, considering he could have skipped that part altogether and become the most powerful person who ever lived in his own lifetime, it was quite a sacrifice.

Africa -> millions suffering and dying a way worse fate. In your faith, the non-Christians are going to Hell. So they'll die of hunger, gang rape, war. Many very slowly of a way worse fate than Jesus. Then they go to Hell to be tormented for the rest of their lives.

In my faith, God is the final judge, so I won't comment on who is going to Hell or not because I have no idea what fate awaits me, much less anyone else.

Sorry, but I think Jesus' sacrifice, which wasn't exactly voluntary, is ridiculously blown out of proportion. It was nice of him to take his execution like a man but for fuck's sake, get over it. In no way does it make up for his malevolent, bitter, dickish father form he's apparently protecting us from (In exchange for our full devotion to him). Any God that requires worship is a head case as it is.

If you accept the biblical story of Jesus as true, Jesus' sacrifice was voluntary, and His Father form is not what he's protecting you from.

[Uncle Sherm]

Given the complete dick that God is, did Jesus really suffer that much for us? 3 days?

Well, he was crucified on Friday and died on Sunday. So that's 2 days unless you're playing semantic games (e.g., Friday, Saturday and Sunday are three days!).

I got that part wrong. That he was crucified and died the same day is my understanding.

[Santa]

Jesus is not protecting us from his Father's judgement?

I know you can say something else like satan,sin, etc, but really, that's his whole fucking thing.

[Santa]

In my faith, God is the final judge, so I won't comment on who is going to Hell or not because I have no idea what fate awaits me, much less anyone else.

Which makes you less of a horrible person. Still hypocritical and ridiculous but I'd hate Christianity a whole lot less if the vocal minority weren't so Santorumy.

[Uncle Sherm]

Jesus is not protecting us from his Father's judgement?

I know you can say something else like satan,sin, etc, but really, that's his whole fucking thing.

The idea is that Jesus accepted his Father's judgement on everyone's behalf. That's Point #2 in the OP. Either you acknowledge that or you don't. If you don't then you will be judged on your own merits.

The Bible, at its core, is a collection of stories of God giving people chances, people fucking up, and God punishing them and then giving people another chance. If he truly was a malevolent figure that we need to seek protection from, we'd be in a hopeless situation.

[Santa]

Jesus is not protecting us from his Father's judgement?

I know you can say something else like satan,sin, etc, but really, that's his whole fucking thing.

The idea is that Jesus accepted his Father's judgement on everyone's behalf. That's Point #2 in the OP. Either you acknowledge that or you don't. If you don't then you will be judged on your own merits.

The Bible, at its core, is a collection of stories of God giving people chances, people fucking up, and God punishing them and then giving people another chance. If he truly was a malevolent figure that we need to seek protection from, we'd be in a hopeless situation.

With ridiculously inconsistent rules, warnings and punishment.

[Uncle Sherm]

Jesus is fake.

The evidence is not on your side. Jesus is supported by eyewitnesses, church history, secular history and bible.

nope, nope, nope, and lol nope.

Jesus of Nazareth was a real person. That's pretty much settled history. Plenty of accounts exist of his prominent early followers (that personally knew him) facing persecution and dying horrible deaths for the sake of carrying out his message. Fictional characters do not inspire that level of devotion from so many people. You can call him a charlatan or a cult leader, but to claim that he never existed is simply wrong.

[Uncle Sherm]

Jesus is not protecting us from his Father's judgement?

I know you can say something else like satan,sin, etc, but really, that's his whole fucking thing.

The idea is that Jesus accepted his Father's judgement on everyone's behalf. That's Point #2 in the OP. Either you acknowledge that or you don't. If you don't then you will be judged on your own merits.

The Bible, at its core, is a collection of stories of God giving people chances, people fucking up, and God punishing them and then giving people another chance. If he truly was a malevolent figure that we need to seek protection from, we'd be in a hopeless situation.

With ridiculously inconsistent rules, warnings and punishment.

The rules, warnings, and punishments are not anymore consistent than I'm sure your parents' rules, warnings, and punishments were as you were growing up. The Israelites of antiquity living in Egypt had a different situation (and different rules) than those settled in the promised land. Those living in exile after the Babylonian conquest also had a different set of rules for their situation. After Jesus, a new set of rules is in place. God is not a legislator, he's a parent figure. Every rule change established a different covenant between God and his people.

[Uncle Sherm]

Why do you only get to vote once in the poll? What if I said no but change my mind? Am I permabanned from Heaven now? Will this be used against me in the rapture?

[Santa]

Does reading it count as saying it? If so, I feel tricked.

[xfrodobagginsx]

So,who here would like to actually explore the evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead? That God is real and that it's the God of the bible?

[MarkK]

Are hobbits even allowed in heaven?

[Uncle Sherm]

If motorboating Rosie Cotton is heaven, yes.

[Dr. Faustus]

Any God who would willing sentence people to be tortured for an infinite amount of time can not be considered benevolent in any sense of the word. What finite action could possible merit infinite punishment? As if that has anything to do with it in the first place. The reason peple get told they'll get tortured forever if they defy the church is so they stay under their control and never ask any questions. The fact that we're even having this conversation in 2012 is ample evidence for how compelling this is ideologically.


On a side note, living out on the East Coast has made me forget just how repulsive fundamentalist Christianity is.

[MarcusAurelius]

yeah, it gets replaced by repulsive human beings

[Santa]

We wouldn't be having this debate if someone had been smart enough to double tap Jesus.

[Talenos]

They forgot to remove the head or destroy the brains. Rule #1 in dealing with the undead.

[Santa]

Should start a parody site about anti-zombie propaganda trying to destroy the second rising of Jesus Christ.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Was The New Testament Written by the Actual Eyewitnesses or After All Eyewitnesses Were Dead?


Critics claim that the New Testament was written so long after the events of Jesus� life that all the eyewitnesses had died and thus the accounts are not accurate. Can we answer this claim? Do we have any reason to believe that the New Testament was written within the lifetime of eyewitnesses? Yes we do. Let�s start with a timeline of the events we�ll be talking about.


4 to 1 BC � Jesus is born

30 to 35 AD � Jesus is crucified and resurrected

50 to 95 AD � The New Testament is written



Here are some reasons for dating the New Testament books early:


� Jesus had predicted that the Jewish temple would be destroyed. This happened in 70AD yet none of the gospels - even John which was written last - mentions it. The idea that, not one, but four different gospel writers would not mention this fulfilled prophecy is simply hard to believe. Some critics argue that the destruction of the temple is mentioned in chapters like Matthew 24 but those verses are clearly talking about the Great Tribulation because they mentioned Jesus returning and reigning forever. It�s foolish to suggest that four different writers were smart enough to fool everyone into thinking Christianity was true yet all were stupid enough to say that Jesus had returned and was reigning


� Around 95AD the early church father Clement quotes either directly or indirectly nearly every book of the Bible


� Throughout church history the authors of the gospels have never been disputed. They have always been Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This is very important because had these books been written by anonymous authors many years later we would find two things:


1) There would be several different traditional authors to each book

2) They would be named after more important people


For point #1 we point out that there is not one different author suggested anywhere in church history for any of the gospels. Not one. It�s only recent modern �scholars� that claim the authorship of the gospels is in dispute. The early church always knew who wrote them. We can prove this out. Compare the gospels to the book of Hebrews which is anonymous. While the gospels have only one author per book, Hebrews has no less then half a dozen different traditional authors!


As far as point #2 goes, note that three of the four gospel writers aren�t important people in the New Testament (John is the exception). Compare this to books that are known frauds� The Gospel of Peter, The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Thomas, all well-known figures. People who forge books would put famous people�s names on them to give them credibility. The gospels don�t follow this pattern.


The gospels claimed to be written either eyewitnesses (Matthew, John) or people who had access to eyewitnesses (Mark, who served as Peter�s secretary and Luke who had access to Paul and the other apostles). And it was nearly two thousand years before anyone disputed this



Now let�s see if we can find reasons to date some books earlier then 70AD:

� Paul, who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament, wrote his works between 50-55AD. These dates are not seriously disputed. So, if nothing else, we can say most of the Bible can be traced back as early as 15 to 20 years of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus

� Peter and Paul were both martyred around 66AD yet the New Testament does not mention their deaths. After Jesus they are the two most important people in Church history and yet not so much as one verse is devoted to their deaths? Even stranger is that Acts, which is the �sequel� to the gospel of Luke, ends with Paul in jail. So from this we can conclude that Paul was still alive by the end of Acts. Now if Paul died in 66AD then Acts must have been written before that. If Acts was written before 66AD then Luke must have been written even earlier then that. And since critics say that Luke was written after Mark and Matthew then they both must have been written very early. That means at least three of the four gospels were written before 66 AD and most likely all were written before 70AD


� James, who authored the book of the Bible after the same name was martyred in 62AD


So before 70AD have at least Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians , 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Philemon, James, 1 Peter, and 2 Peter all written.



Now let�s take a different approach to prove our point. The fatal mistake the critics make is they assume that there was 30 or more years of silence between the death of Jesus and the birth of Christianity. Jesus, they reason, died and long after all the eyewitnesses were gone the New Testament was written. I think we can show this wasn�t the case and that the apostles were preaching about Jesus from the beginning.


As we said before, the earliest New Testament writings come from Paul in the early 50�s. So right here we have the two-thirds of the New Testament written within 15 to 20 years of the crucifixion. What�s important is what Paul wrote. He doesn�t talk much about Jesus life the way the gospels do. His writings build on the foundation of the gospels. He assumes you�ve already heard the gospel account.


Also notice to whom he�s writing to. He writes to churches and elders and instructs them on theology, church conduct, the importance of the resurrection (even challenging people to verify the resurrection by talking to the eyewitnesses!), and corrects false teaching. So from Paul�s writings we learn:


� He writes to people who knew the gospel story and he is teaching them how to apply the gospels to their lives


� Christianity is so far advance that it�s organized to the point where there are churches in many areas far away and they have elders

� The churches were having to deal with false teachers who were coming to their churches


So within 15-20 years of the crucifixion Christianity has gained a following, spread throughout different regions, organized meeting places for believers, established a hierarchy within the church, and has been around long enough to develop problems with false teachers. You can�t do all this overnight. And you can�t do it at all if people hadn�t heard, and checked out for themselves, the claims of the gospel.

Later on, with the rise of the false teachers the need arose for the gospels to be written so future generations would know the truth about the good news of the salvation that is found in Jesus Christ.

[Santa]

I had two dreams last night.

The first one was that Denver was built just like New Orleans but with some sort of watery Tundra surrounding it instead of swamp. As the land was getting cleared, all the Yetis were forced out and back into the mountains. After I sadly watched the Yeti trail of tears, I started wandering back through the forest that apparently I was in the entire time and ran into a relatively intelligent Yeti that was sad he had to leave Denver. All he wanted was to go to school and play football so we took him in, shaved him, gave him some prosthetics and sent him to school. Unfortunately, the school eventually found out and he had to be sent back to live on his Yeti reservation. I woke up a bit in the middle of the night and told myself "WOW THAT'D MAKE A GREAT BOOK".

My second dream involved wandering through caves until I came upon Jesus. I shot him in the back with a shotgun, then again in the head for good measure. I was sad to see he wasn't actually a zombie but I felt I did the world a pretty big favor and was proud of myself.

Moral of the story:

Just because you can write about shit your brain makes up, doesn't mean you should. Nor does it mean it's in any way factual or believable.

[Uncle Sherm]

I had two dreams last night.

The first one was that Denver was built just like New Orleans but with some sort of watery Tundra surrounding it instead of swamp. As the land was getting cleared, all the Yetis were forced out and back into the mountains. After I sadly watched the Yeti trail of tears, I started wandering back through the forest that apparently I was in the entire time and ran into a relatively intelligent Yeti that was sad he had to leave Denver. All he wanted was to go to school and play football so we took him in, shaved him, gave him some prosthetics and sent him to school. Unfortunately, the school eventually found out and he had to be sent back to live on his Yeti reservation. I woke up a bit in the middle of the night and told myself "WOW THAT'D MAKE A GREAT BOOK".

My second dream involved wandering through caves until I came upon Jesus. I shot him in the back with a shotgun, then again in the head for good measure. I was sad to see he wasn't actually a zombie but I felt I did the world a pretty big favor and was proud of myself.

Moral of the story:

Just because you can write about shit your brain makes up, doesn't mean you should. Nor does it mean it's in any way factual or believable.

I'd probably lend you some measure of credibility if multiple authors accounted your tale and all died pretty horrible deaths because they refused to deny the events you wrote about took place. The persecution of the early church is a matter of secular record, and a lot of people experienced some pretty nasty treatment over their beliefs regarding this shaved yeti.

[Santa]

No no, the shaved yeti was an Ok guy. He just wanted to play football.

Sherm, the Bible is has been rewritten about a bazillion times and if there was really decent proof that any of that shit happened, it would have been found by now.

No walking on water. No burning bush. No random fish multiplication. It's just a bunch of shitty fairy tales for irrational people.

[Uncle Sherm]

No no, the shaved yeti was an Ok guy. He just wanted to play football.

Sherm, the Bible is has been rewritten about a bazillion times and if there was really decent proof that any of that shit happened, it would have been found by now.

No walking on water. No burning bush. No random fish multiplication. It's just a bunch of shitty fairy tales for irrational people.

What shit are you talking about that would leave any evidence behind? Obviously there aren't any photos of Jesus walking on water, no bush from thousands of years ago is still around, and whatever is left of the fish and bread meal is gone. Considering the fact that everything in the Bible took place in what has been a perpetual warzone and the people living there tend to be sensitive to disturbing their "sacred places", there has been a remarkable number of archeological discoveries over the years.

[Santa]

Let's look at it this way:
Start out by pretending you weren't brainwashed. Wipe the slate clean and think about it from the ground up.

What actual evidence do you have that any supernatural portrayals about Jesus were real?

Furthermore, what evidence do you have that Mohammed wasn't real? Different bat time, same fucking bat channel. Shouldn't you be a Muslim? There's plenty of proof he was just as Jesus as Jesus if you're willing to believe bullshit.

Aren't you Catholic? How does your brain even begin to handle the contradiction within the church? The harm it has done? The "heresy" of Galileo? Fighting contraception here... Denying contraception in starving Aids Africa?

The only thing consistent in your fairytale is the constant struggle for them to keep control over you.

[Uncle Sherm]

Let's look at it this way:
Start out by pretending you weren't brainwashed. Wipe the slate clean and think about it from the ground up.

What actual evidence do you have that any supernatural portrayals about Jesus were real?

The story of Paul is probably the most obvious evidence that comes to mind in terms of evidence you should accept, but since it is part of the Bible (as any other first hand accounts of Jesus would be), you won't accept it as evidence. So why don't you just tell me what sort of evidence you want?

Furthermore, what evidence do you have that Mohammed wasn't real? Different bat time, same fucking bat channel. Shouldn't you be a Muslim? There's plenty of proof he was just as Jesus as Jesus if you're willing to believe bullshit.

Mohammed was real. Nobody but the goofy people that don't know anything about the history of Islam and think the Muslims worship him as their god think he is made up.

Aren't you Catholic? How does your brain even begin to handle the contradiction within the church? The harm it has done? The "heresy" of Galileo? Fighting contraception here... Denying contraception in starving Aids Africa?

The only thing consistent in your fairytale is the constant struggle for them to keep control over you.

No, I'm not Catholic. Nothing you've said here is contradictory to my beliefs, including the struggle to control me.

[Santa]

The story of Paul is probably the most obvious evidence that comes to mind in terms of evidence you should accept, but since it is part of the Bible (as any other first hand accounts of Jesus would be), you won't accept it as evidence. So why don't you just tell me what sort of evidence you want?

Why? Because he got blinded by the light and woke up a douche?

[Uncle Sherm]

He was a very educated man that gave up a very promising career to pursue a very difficult life, and convinced many other people of all stripes to do the same, at great risk to their own lives. People don't do that over stories of a shaved Yeti. You may convince a drug addled retard that your story is true, but to gather a following the size of Paul's, ranging from the drug addled retards to the Roman educated upper class, all at great risk to their own lives and freedom, takes real substance.

So really, what evidence of Jesus' supernatural earthly existence could possibly exist that you would accept as evidence? Since anything currently considered evidence is already branded as religious, and therefore immediately discredited in your eyes, this seems a hopeless conversation.

[Santa]

People do shit against their interest all the time.

For fuck's sake, Jesus was supposed to come back during Paul's lifetime according to Paul. If he believed that, do you think he was really risking all that much in his mind?

The fact that people believe him? How is that evidence? Many more people are following Mohammed than followed Paul.

Furthermore, the fact that you talk of the "risk" they're taking is laughable. Christianity did to protect itself, just as the religions before it did to protect themselves from Christianity. They've killed, manipulated and silenced too many brilliant people and ideas to count.

Religion is a virus. It's a virus made to appease and control people. Sometimes, in a perfect setting, it can help people. Mostly, it just hurts by obfuscating the truth. The ability for blind faith is about the most corruptible and vile portion of the human brain.

[Uncle Sherm]

People do shit against their interest all the time.

For something they don't believe to be true? No they don't.

For fuck's sake, Jesus was supposed to come back during Paul's lifetime according to Paul. If he believed that, do you think he was really risking all that much in his mind?

No, he wasn't. Paul's the one that said the time of the return is unknown.

The fact that people believe him? How is that evidence? Many more people are following Mohammed than followed Paul.

So? Mohammed was more forceful in his methods than Paul. It has nothing to do with numbers, but rather that people risked and sacrificed a great deal to follow him.

Furthermore, the fact that you talk of the "risk" they're taking is laughable. Christianity did to protect itself, just as the religions before it did to protect themselves from Christianity. They've killed, manipulated and silenced too many brilliant people and ideas to count.

Not in the days of the apostles, which is what we are talking about.

Religion is a virus. It's a virus made to appease and control people. Sometimes, in a perfect setting, it can help people. Mostly, it just hurts by obfuscating the truth. The ability for blind faith is about the most corruptible and vile portion of the human brain.

Says you. The only people trying to change minds here are you and a weekly bot.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Let's look at it this way:
Start out by pretending you weren't brainwashed. Wipe the slate clean and think about it from the ground up.

What actual evidence do you have that any supernatural portrayals about Jesus were real?

Furthermore, what evidence do you have that Mohammed wasn't real? Different bat time, same !@#$ bat channel. Shouldn't you be a Muslim? There's plenty of proof he was just as Jesus as Jesus if you're willing to believe bullshit.

Aren't you Catholic? How does your brain even begin to handle the contradiction within the church? The harm it has done? The "heresy" of Galileo? Fighting contraception here... Denying contraception in starving Aids Africa?

The only thing consistent in your fairytale is the constant struggle for them to keep control over you.

There is lots of evidence if you wish to see it. Where would you like to start? I have secular writings of Jesus from hisorians of His day. I can tell you why Islam is a fraud, the bible was written first. All mohammad did was take the bible and twist up the stories to fit what he wanted. The quran contradicts secular history. The bible is supported by it. Big difference.

[Dr. Faustus]

Does it really matter if there was a physically existing person Jesus was based off of or not? Most of the stories about him, especially those involving being born of a virgin and coming back from the dead, can't be true. Perhaps there was a religious thinker whose life the stories were loosely based on. I mean that in the Hollywood, "based on a true story" sense.

[Uncle Sherm]

Does it really matter if there was a physically existing person Jesus was based off of or not? Most of the stories about him, especially those involving being born of a virgin and coming back from the dead, can't be true. Perhaps there was a religious thinker whose life the stories were loosely based on. I mean that in the Hollywood, "based on a true story" sense.

And at what point do people choose to start dying for this "based on a true story" fairytale?

The Apostle Paul started out as a more violent version of Richard Dawkins in his day. You think his conversion was due to a loose collection of tales based on a contemporary religious thinker?

[xfrodobagginsx]

Does it really matter if there was a physically existing person Jesus was based off of or not? Most of the stories about him, especially those involving being born of a virgin and coming back from the dead, can't be true. Perhaps there was a religious thinker whose life the stories were loosely based on. I mean that in the Hollywood, "based on a true story" sense.

The problem is that the official historians from around the world didn't see Him as a fictional charactor. They saw Him as a real person and wrote about Him and that situation. I also highly doubt that Chrisitans would have been willing to DIE for what they knew was a lie. It wasn't Hollywood, it was Reality.

[Talenos]

They wrote about him the same way people wrote about Zeus.

[xfrodobagginsx]

No they didn't. They weren't just telling a story. Roman historians didn't write fiction. They wrote regarding the events which were taking place in their day. I think that ceasar would have their head removed if they made up stories.

[Mr. F]

No they didn't. They weren't just telling a story. Roman historians didn't write fiction. They wrote regarding the events which were taking place in their day. I think that ceasar would have their head removed if they made up stories.

Which key parts of the Christian story did ancient Roman historians corroborate? Include sources, please.

[xfrodobagginsx]

No they didn't. They weren't just telling a story. Roman historians didn't write fiction. They wrote regarding the events which were taking place in their day. I think that ceasar would have their head removed if they made up stories.

Which key parts of the Christian story did ancient Roman historians corroborate? Include sources, please.

Josephus was Rome's Official Historian. He wrote regaring Christ:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus


Here are many other early historical writings regarding Christ:


Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ


TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)
Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”

PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”
Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.

In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)
This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.
Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!

CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.

JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:

“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.

CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”
Eusebius, IV, III

EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.

ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.
And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”
Carey, “Aristides,” 68.

JUSTIN MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew.

HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.

TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.

MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.

HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.
“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.
But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences.
And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.

JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.

SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”

HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.

ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.
“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.
For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.
But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.
And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.
Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.
But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.

[Santa]

Does it really matter if there was a physically existing person Jesus was based off of or not? Most of the stories about him, especially those involving being born of a virgin and coming back from the dead, can't be true. Perhaps there was a religious thinker whose life the stories were loosely based on. I mean that in the Hollywood, "based on a true story" sense.

And at what point do people choose to start dying for this "based on a true story" fairytale?

The Apostle Paul started out as a more violent version of Richard Dawkins in his day. You think his conversion was due to a loose collection of tales based on a contemporary religious thinker?

Maybe he found a Manfred Mann 8 track and a book about Horus.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Funny you should mention Horus. Did you know that most of the claims about that story being similar to Jesus Christ are a huge hoax?

[Santa]

Funny you should mention Jesus. Did you know most of the claims about him being a deity are a huge hoax?

[nippletwister]

[xfrodobagginsx]

Funny you should mention Jesus. Did you know most of the claims about him being a deity are a huge hoax?

Nope. He's recorded not only in the eyewitness accounts (the bible), in other writings and in church history, He is also mentioned by secular historians from His day. Here are some records for you to ponder:


Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ


Price Tags

TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)
Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”

PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”
Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.

In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)
This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.
Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!

CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.

JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:

“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.

CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”
Eusebius, IV, III

EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.

ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.
And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”
Carey, “Aristides,” 68.

JUSTIN MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew.

HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.

TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.

MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.

HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.
“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.
But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences.
And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.

JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.

SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”

HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.

ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.
“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.
For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.
But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.
And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.
Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.
But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Funny you should mention Jesus. Did you know most of the claims about him being a deity are a huge hoax?

Nope. He's recorded not only in the eyewitness accounts (the bible), in other writings and in church history, He is also mentioned by secular historians from His day. Here are some records for you to ponder: Oh and let's not forget the writings of Josephus, Romes Official Historian from His day.

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ


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TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)
Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”

PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”
Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.

In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)
This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.
Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!

CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.

JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:

“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.

CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”
Eusebius, IV, III

EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.

ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.
And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”
Carey, “Aristides,” 68.

JUSTIN MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew.

HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.

TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.

MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.

HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.
“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.
But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences.
And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.

JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.

SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”

HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.

ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.
“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.
For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.
But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.
And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.
Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.
But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.